Question
Which will attract more visitors to Buffalo?
“Bifocal intellectuals” looking at architecture and our “sense of place”?
or
The Buffalo Creek Casino?
31 Responses to “Question”
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John Says:July 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
It would have to be the architecture. Not even the Senecas believe the casino will attract tourists (except those from Tonawanda, Hamburg, Amherest - maybe even as far away as Jamestown!). Unless, of course, they were lying to the feds which, given that they are by definition anti-American, might be the case.
Chris Smith Says:July 17th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Both are small niches in the tourism market.
We should be strive to reach the broadest demographic as possible. It’s a composite of those activities and others that will provide a multi-destination stop on a summer vacation for most families. They can gamble, see the Falls, see the buildings, stop by a museum, shop, see a show, etc. When I decide on a destination, I got to places that have a multitude of options.
Question : Casino News Says:July 17th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
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al-alo Says:July 17th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
a different question: which would have the greatest net gain (money spent in hotels, restaurants, museums, theatre, etc) for the local economy.
a visitor who pays no local sales tax might as well not exist.
Frieda Says:July 17th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Why do some people in Buffalo come across as if they have the worlds best architecture. Sure there are some outstanding buildings, but other cities have as many if not more examples of outstanding architecture. Is Buffalo architecture better than Chicago, or New York, or Boston, or Philadelphia, or Washington dc? I doubt it even comes close. Buffalo needs a reality check. Which begs the question why would anyone come to Buffalo just for the architecture. The city will have to offer a lot more to hop aboard the tourism express. Its only one piece of the mosaic. The Casino is another piece…
Chris Smith Says:July 17th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Frieda, I was gonna say all of that in my first comment, but left it alone. I agree with you 100%. You cite larger cities, but there are plenty of similar sized cities with history, architecture, built environment, and museum campuses that are equal to or better than Buffalo. They also have a wide array of things to do for families and individuals on vacation. We need to look at our city and its offerings from the outside in and not be so certain that we’re a compelling option for people with things as they are.
mike hudson Says:July 17th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
chris, i was gonna say everything frieda said too. and, like you, i would cite cleveland, pittsburgh and toronto –rather than the big east coast cities — as places where the wholly made up “architectural tourist” might more profitably spend a day or a week looking at buildings. i think that buffalonians who harp on their city’s “great architecture” are either comparing it to fredonia or simply haven’t been to any other old cities.
Tuco Says:July 17th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
The correct answer to the question is “NONE OF THE ABOVE”. Anyone who thinks Buffalo is unique in its architectural history doesn’t get out of the area too often. As far as the Buffalo casino, it won’t draw all that many visitors from out of town. It will be packed after Sabres and Bandits games, but thats about it. The hotel will host the occasional group of out-of-towners, but will end up mostly catering to locals who want a weekend away from their kids.
eliz Says:July 17th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Well, hold on, I have been to Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and TO, and I don’t remember seeing signage for the 5 FLW structures, not to mention Sullivan and Richardson. Buffalo has excellent cred for architecture in that group. For those who actually know something about architecture, and care about it.
That’s why people bring up Chicago and NY.
However, having said that, I’d agree and say none of the above. Whether justified or not, people are unlikely ever to think of Buffalo as a tourist destination. The casino will certainly not change that.
laughingoutloud Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Excuse me liz, but obviously you are not the architectual officianado you like to think you are. Lets see Richardson in Pittsburg? how about the alleghenny county courthouse, or Emmanuel Episc. church> Afa frank lloyd wrigh how about Fallingwater, designed for a Pittsburgh dept store owner. It as as much a part of pittsburg as Greycliff is of Buffalo, and what about Hagan House. Or in Cleveland the Louis Penfield house? Or the 12 other FLW houses in OHIO.
laughingoutloud Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:13 am
corr pittsburg read pittsburgh
laughingoutloud Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:22 am
corr officianado read aficionado
mike hudson Says:July 18th, 2008 at 1:00 am
does the wright tally count the gas station that was never built but may be someday soon?
anyway, cleveland has more sanford white’s than you can shake a stick at, including the magnificent terminal tower, completed in 1930 and the second tallest building in the world until 1964, a ballpark and the 658-foot-tall 200 public square building by hellmuth, obata & kassabaum, others by i.m. pei, cesar pelli and wallace harrison who did the u.n. building and rockefeller center in manhattan. there’s john eisenmann’s 1890 cleveland arcade, which now houses my favorite hotel and is a national historic landmark as opposed to being listed on the national register of historic places, the hyatt, and the public library and severance hall, both great neoclassicalstructures done in the 20s by the local firm of walker & weeks with pediments, cornices etc. fashioned by famed new york sculptor henry hering.
cleveland has five skyscrapers more than 500 feet tall. buffalo has one, barely. too bad those ohio rubes don’t have some shitty little house designed by flw.
Snarky Snarkmore McSnarkamaphone Says:July 18th, 2008 at 1:36 am
Know what Cleveland *doesn’t* have….
I do!
LOLSeneca: I can has a moneypit?
Frieda Says:July 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am
@ELIZ I think your post is a case in point in re Buffalo’s provincialism. You recite the Buffalo mantra of Sullivan, Wright, and Richardson, while apparently discounting the fact that there are other notable American architects who are NOT represented in Buffalo. Richardson, himself, considered the Allegheny Courthouse in Pittsburgh his greatest work. If Buffalo was confident with its architectural heritage it would have moved on and built a Calatrava or a Ghery, not a Wright rework designed for another time and place, which is only visible from a fishing pier or at 60 MPH.
eliz. Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
I think we have better critical mass on Wright than those 3 cities, in spite of the good points made here. Falling Water is not in Pittsburgh; it’s a considerable excursion outside of town. In Buff you can, within, geez, 45 min, if you’re making good time, see Martin (one of his masterpieces), Davidson, Heath, and 2 “new” Wrights. AND the Richardson, Sullivan etc. I know this because I have done it with visitors in a hurry. And I routinely have out-of-towners (from NY, etc) exclaim at the overall excellence of the domestic architecture that we pass by along the way.
So I stand by that, even though I am not an expert. It is the critical mass I refer to–we have those, PLUS we have the other stuff. To see it all so conveniently is a point that must be acknowledged. And every other out-of-towner I have shown around says it too.
Chris Smith Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Eliz, as is usual, the discussion reaches its extremes…
Certainly, we have a critical mass of notable architecture destinations. My point was that many other cities have them as well and we need to think broadly about attracting people to Buffalo/Niagara Falls. Whether that is best accomplished through distinct niche marketing campaigns (as it appears we’re executing) or a broad based regional tourism plan, is what I’m most interested in debating.
eliz. Says:July 18th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
In fact, it’s because I’m not an expert that I noticed how much there was and how concentrated it was. I would drive visitors around and they would freak out over the buildings–and I wondered what they were talking about. Now I have a better idea–and sure other places have a lot. But we deserve the kudos we give ourselves–and if we don’t acknowledge it–and publicize it–we can’t expect others to recognize it.
Some of you guys have a big problem with promoting Buffalo’s strengths, which I find curious.
Mike Says:July 18th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I wonder if the 1970’s split level house’s will ever bring in the visitors?
Frieda Says:July 18th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
“I routinely have out-of-towners (from NY, etc) exclaim at the overall excellence of the domestic architecture that we pass by along the way. ”
So, What do you expect out of town vistors to say? When I visit another city I rave about the good things I see. The rest, well, goes unsaid.
mike hudson Says:July 18th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
as everyone knows, i hate to be negative, but the point, i think, is that architecture is NOT one of buffalo’s strengths. perhaps my cleveland comparison was unfair because i lived there for 28 years while i’ve only lived here for 10, but i doubt frankly that there are some large impressive buildings i’ve somehow missed along what passes for the buffalo skyline.
note that in my brief description of cleveland’s humble architectural holdings, i’ve completely and deliberately overlooked churches, public monuments and “houses,” all of which it has its share. just as i would never suggest that cleveland is comparable to chicago or new york, two other towns i have a passing familiarity with, i would immediately recognize the parochialism inherent in saying that buffalo is the equivalent of cleveland, pittsburgh or, for that matter, milwaukee or minneapolis. because it’s not.
it’s rather like the way some buffalonians talk about the food here. yes, the italian and polish cuisine is excellent, and the pizza, chicken wings and beef on weck are as good as you can get anywhere, and you can get them anywhere these days. but to hear the buffalo boosters tell it, they went to north carolina once and couldn’t even eat.
long-time expat Says:July 18th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Wright buildings? BFD -there are 2 within 5 miles of me. Oak Park, IL is littered with them. The guy was prolific, and that’s not even counting the posthumous building such as the Monona Terrace project in Madison (which IMHO is not true Wright because the roof doesn’t leak
Richardson buildings? Like the NY Insane Asylum, slowing crumbling on Forest Avenue? (Stunning, airy interiors, btw: I was lucky enough to tour it when I was in town a while back). Buffalo has - or rather, had - a lot of great architecture from its glory days, but so do a lot of other cities.
I visit WNY twice annually for a total of 3-4 weeks per year, and I travel extensively to other places. After my last visit (last month) I went to Toronto to unwind because I had to see sidewalks with people on them, as well as some diversity. I think the population in WNY has gotten so spread out that it’s hard to get a city buzz, what makes just walking around other cities so enjoyable and serendipitous. Downtown Buffalo’s a ghost town; Elmwood’s marginally better. Williamsville’s ok, but rolls up the sidewalks early.
What kind of tourists does WNY want to attract (yeah, the ones who leave lots of money here, of course)? How’s it going to compete for the sports fans, or the casino fans, or even the architecture fans? What does it have going for it that’s unique? Theater? Lots of cities have that, and the same shows have road companies that travel the states. Food? Lots of good food in the country these days - what’s unique about Buffalo? History? The Underground Railroad connection is a lot stronger than in most places: why not go after the Black middle class $$$$, as well as the Civil War buffs. The whole immigrant experience, from the Irish canal builders to the mill workers along the lake? Exploit the lake more: at least the Erie Canal project has made some progress in the past few years. And where’s the National (or International) Wing Fest???? Or the Mark Twain tours? Or for the macabre-minded, the presidential package: See where Cleveland hanged people when he was sheriff! See McKinley’s Murder re-enacted!
Mike Says:July 18th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Lets just face it, no one comes to buffalo for a vacation. The only way to get people here are jobs.
Buffalopundit Says:July 18th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
@Mike: No, but they do come to Niagara Falls, Niagara-on-the-Lake, and Toronto. The question is - how can we get some of those millions of annual visitors to the area to take a quick jaunt down 20 miles’ worth of I-190.
Chris Smith Says:July 18th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
In order to do anything right, you need to set priorities. Who do we wish to attract? What do we need to do to attract them? How will we reach them? Viral, brodcast, print, partnerships, or all of the above? How will we get them to spend money while here? How do we measure success?
Do we use our limited resources to attract niche tourists interested in niche offerings like FLW buildings and architecture? Or, do we want to put together a regional destination guide that includes our architecture and niche offerings as well as all the other things people like to do? Regional, regional, regional. As in Buffalo, Niagara Falls and all points in between.
There is absolutely NO reason that we should not be actively collaboratively with Niagara County tourism officials and even Southern Ontario officials to market regionally, nationally, and globally. Enjoy Niagara On The Lake, Artpark, The Falls, Casinos, Architecture in Buffalo, Roycroft, Greycliff, the suburban villages of Orchard Park, Williamsville, and East Aurora, etc.
We need to think of how to recruit as wide a demographic as possible and not just small niches. We’re sitting less than 20 miles from one of the greatest tourist brands in the world (Niagara Falls) and we can’t figure out how to lure people to the region for chrissakes. If it takes funding, lets appeal to local businesses to underwrite the efforts instead of focusing solely on bed tax monies and public sources. I’ll sign up to extend Buffalo Homecoming from an annual destination event to a regional marketing agency.
Mike Says:July 18th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Alright, how about free nose plugs, beer goggles and start a cute chubby chicks club. This was just from going to Hertel Ave last night!
Timothy Domst Says:July 18th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Tart up the canal area. Accentuate the seedy history of the docks, and fill it with bars and a strip club or two that echo that time. Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan does a brisk trade in Al Capone tourism, he went there to direct his bootlegging. Buffalo could be Toronto’s drunken booty call, Leafs fans can get revenge on the town after watching the Sabres beat them down yet again.
Buffalo could also pick a genre of music and try to be the center of it, the way Detroit has with techno. I think this idea would probably fail miserably, though.
steve Says:July 18th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
@Chris Smith –”There is absolutely NO reason that we should not be actively collaboratively with Niagara County tourism officials and even Southern Ontario officials to market regionally, nationally, and globally.”
While you are absolutely correct, you need to dance lightly on this or risk the wrath of mr. hudson, who sees evil in “Buffalo interests” simply because they are, well, not from Niagara Falls. Hell, I think he is even wary of folks from Lockport.
Buffalo Hodgepodge Says:July 19th, 2008 at 12:27 am
It is completely unrealistic to think that Buffalo, now the 68th largest city in America, will be a meaningful tourist destination. The consumer who is motivated to travel to Toronto or Niagara on the Lake has a certain set of criteria that pushes them there - and nothing in Buffalo meets that criteria.
We should be laser focused on skimming off whatever we can as a gateway to other regional sights, and capturing our share of dollars by playing up our utilitarian role as a retail shopping destination for Canadians (not just stores but also hotels, restaurants, etc.). Anything beyond that is an utter waste of time, money, and effort.
We’re at best the opposite of the old saying: “It’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.”
mike hudson Says:July 19th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
yeah, hate fucking lockport. but i would ask my friend chris why in the world niagara falls — or anyplace else — would be interested in a collaborative effort that would result in an exodus of tourism dollars? while it would certainly be in buffalo’s interest, but i don’t see any upside for the other collaborators.
buffalo’s place in the world may best be summed up by comparing sports franchises.
detroit has the pistons, the redwings, the lions and the tigers.
pittsburgh has the steelers, the penguins, the pirates and the great panthers college teams.
cleveland has the tribe and it’s minor league captains, the browns and the cavaliers.
all of these teams play in stadiums located in the downtowns of their respective cities.
buffalo has the bills, who play 30 miles outside of town and will soon be playing in toronto, another indians minor league club that will soon be a toronto minor league club and the sabres.
arena football doesn’t count and hockey barely counts.
Jeff Brennan Says:July 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I haven’t seen any numbers so I wouldn’t know how the comparison actually comes out for the local economy. But, I do know that “bifocal intellectuals” leave a lot of money per person-night compared to most demographics. It won’t save the city but if you have a given amount of marketing money it might make sense to get the people that spend the most.
But, the conversation morphed into “why come to Buffalo?” Well, I think it isn’t about claiming we are better than XYZ city. We just need to get on the list of places people consider going to. I rarely go anyplace more than once. But I have been to Anapolis, Maryland (for the charming built environment) twice by choice and it isn’t better than Buffalo. But if I don’t know what a place has to offer I can’t get it on the list of places to visit. There are plenty of people that will come here at least once if they know of something worthwhile. But we aren’t going to appeal to everybody - so what. I wouldn’t go to Indianapolis for anything but there are tons that go for the auto racing. Same thing for Buffalo. Architecture fans are like people making notches on their belt. They don’t tend to go to the same places over and over. But there are millions of people who should be told that the architecture in Buffalo is a notch they should consider. Given the credentials Buffalo has, people will come for the notch.