Donn Esmonde
From now on, any time an opponent of the Bass Pro / Canal Side plan refers to there being a plan for a “big box” store on the inner harbor, they have completely lost all credibility on the issue. If you can’t be straight with people on that simple issue, you can’t be expected to be straight with people on anything else. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus is the Latin phrase / legal term of art for it.
The movement to stop the “horror” and “abomination” that is this “suburban-mall development” is on. Good for them. Too bad all they can do is throw out insults and accusations rather than spell out exactly how this plan infringes so egregiously on what they wanted there.
One man's opinion Says:April 30th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Frankly, I’d be tickeled pink if Bass Pro put a store on the waterfront. I mean, Baltimore has an ESPN Zone on their waterfront, and it looks great. It’s all in the execution. The facade can be made to look totally 18th century, 19th century or whatever era you’re shooting for. Hell, they can stick a Taco Bell right next to it if its executed right.
Exactly what are the preservationists defending? Blight? Lack of development and continued economic stagnation? Continued alienation of new blood in the city? The Buffalo these people are defending hasn’t existed in 60 years. For all their vitriol, you might think that the waterfront currently housed something as beautiful and as historically important as Quincy Market in Boston or the Lincoln Memorial in DC, and someone just proposed to drop a Hooter’s hotel and casino complex in the middle of it. Puh-lease. I think the head of Ani DiFranco’s record company (which employs how many people exactly, btw?) and the rest of that crowd needs a serious dose of reality.
So let there be Bass Pro already, and be thankful that its President happens to own a house next to the Rich family in Florida, because that’s how this ball got rolling in the first place. Bass already has two stores not even two hours North and East of the city, so its not like their in anyway desperate to set up shop on Lake Erie. We should be happy there even considering coming here.
Cathy Says:April 30th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Yes, he’s quite wrong. Minimum wage jobs and better access to firearms is precisely what Western New York needs.
NTB Says:April 30th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Why isn’t it a “big box store”? Certainly looks like one to me.
Derek J. Punaro Says:April 30th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
This is not a preservation issue. There is nothing to preserve. I’ll keep saying it until I turn into a smurf.
thesportsroadtrip Says:April 30th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
I look at that photo of the audience and I get an icy chill down my spine. Back in 1987-88 that same crowd took sway in Cheektowaga under the moniker “Citizens Task Force Against Another Mall”. The “abomination” and “horror” then was the proposal to build a state of the art 1.2 milion sf shopping mall, which today we know to be the Walden Galleria.
Believe me, these do gooders threw everything but the kitchen sink back then to try and stop this project. It was surely the path to the apocalypse they so claimed and I won’t bore you here with the tedious arguments brought up then, but it is mostly the same crap we’re hearing now about the Inner Harbor.
Take a look today.. the Walden Galleria is the standard and the marker for retaling here in WNY (With apologies to downtown Buf wish it were down there). Throngs of happy shoppers, cash registers a ringing, two hour waits for tables at Cheesecake Factory, and coming soon a lifestyles center with a “fake”
Main Street.
Ironic isn’t it? Happening in Cheektowaga NOW are stores and restaurants and shops with old style 19th century facades and ornate lighting and mosaic brickwork and streetscapes, designed to mimic and recreate the appearance of the retail era of yesteryear.
Meantime… in downtown Buffalo there are those fighting to keep the Wharf empty, windswept, barren and litter strewn for the next fifty years, with only a tin shack museum and a creaky battleship which nobody gives a damn about. How sad!
buffalowatchdog Says:May 1st, 2007 at 1:04 am
oh brother…. spare me the firearms BS.
I think we need to activate the BANANA BRIGADE on this one… SOON too!
We might need a new Acronym though
BenMcD Says:May 1st, 2007 at 2:14 am
I get the feeling that the term “big box store” has less to do with the actual look of the store, and more to do with the type of store it is. My intuition says that the big box opponents see Bass Pro as a purveyor of cheap goods that appeal to a lower class than what they want or would patronize. They see Bass Pro as the hunting/fishing version of Walmart. If the plan were to put some high class store found only on streets like Madison or 5th ave in NYC, they probably wouldn’t be up in arms about this project.
Mike In WNY Says:May 1st, 2007 at 2:31 am
It is just wrong on many levels, PERIOD!
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:00 am
To Donn Esmonde: (with apologies to the 1992 Clinton Campaign) “IT’S THE PEOPLE STUPID!!” We need to get people downtown. We are just starting to attract residential development. The next step is retail development. South Street Seaport in NYC has probably 100,000 people living within a 1/2 mile radius of it already. The Buffalo EC Terminus has probably 100 people living within 1/2 mile. The Seaport also sits right on multiple subway and bus routes. With all due respect to quaint shops and glass blowers..THAT AIN’T GONNA PAY THE RENT!!!. Let’s stick with Quinn, he has a great track record in commercial development and he has a great plan to REVITALIZE, (that is the goal isn’t it??) downtown.
sally Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:02 am
Mike is just wrong on many levels Period!
And btw so is Cathy
Jim Ostrowski Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:12 am
“Let’s stick with Quinn, he has a great track record in commercial development and he has a great plan to REVITALIZE, (that is the goal isn’t it??) downtown.”
We’ve been stuck with Quinn for what, 35 years now? How much more time and government money do we give this guy?
There’s rarely a penalty for failure in Buffalo’s political class/plutocracy.
Jim Ostrowski Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:16 am
Oh, and how did the Quinns get appointed to this secretive, Manhattan-controlled panel anyway?
Neither Empire State Dev. nor Governor Pataki’s office would tell me.
NTB Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:39 am
If the plan were to put some high class store found only on streets like Madison or 5th ave in NYC, they probably wouldn’t be up in arms about this project.
But those stores aren’t “big box stores,” now are they? Been to 5th Avenue lately? Very few retail sheds surrounded by parking lots (or ramps) in midtown.
South Street Seaport in NYC has probably 100,000 people living within a 1/2 mile radius of it already.
Now wait a minute. Locals don’t move downtown to live near South Street Seaport because locals, as a rule, don’t go to South Street Seaport, which is full of mostly shitty retail and a bunch of truly atrocious restuarants that are ridiculously overpriced. If people have moved to lower manhattan in the last 10 years, it has mostly to do with the tightening of the real-estate market across the city and the arrival of actually useful retail (like the Borders on broadway, which was a big improvement…) But seriously, that’s a BS comparison.
Maybe Bass Pro will spur other retail development, and then spur residental interest downtown. But no one is moving downtown to live next to a gun n’ tackle shop. And let’s be clear on this: it is unlikely that the folks visiting Bass Pro are going to, you know, spend a hell of a lot of time downtown in Buffalo spending money. Not a lot of crossover there. A few new clips for the hunting rifle then Irish Classical Theater?
(To be clear, I’m not 100 percent against the development… or for it. But let’s be clear about what we’re getting and not getting with this…)
TseTse Says:May 1st, 2007 at 10:52 am
About 25 years ago plans were being developed to re-do the outer harbor (pre opus). At that time a small handful of self-annointed wonderkind complained it was too much of a giveaway to private developers. They wanted most of the area preserved as open space. Well , the area is still open space. I would like to know, if they go romp thru the empty fields off furnham blvd. They say whats past is prologue. A vision for Canalside 25 years from now.
steve Says:May 1st, 2007 at 10:56 am
Any of your folks ever been to a Bass Pro? Anyone? It is no more a “gun-n-tackle shop” than LL Bean in Freeport is a hiking store. I wonder, in fact, if we would witness this level of vitriol if it were LL Bean.
Forget, if you can, the detail of what they sell, but focus on the fact that lots of people with lots of money tend to frequent their outlets.
NTB — You’re saying we should only attract people to the waterfront who also will frequent the theater district? People who hunt, fish, hike, boat and so on also eat and shop and, presumably, have disposal income to support these pleasures. Seems to me that there is a growing elitism associated with the opposition to the proposed project that doesn’t really fit with Buffalo’s image of blue collar friendliness.
joe sshmidbauer Says:May 1st, 2007 at 10:57 am
Folks
Name one urban redevelopment project that Benderson has done in its history. They have become a multi-billion dollar company doing standardized commercial box strip malls up and down the east coast.
Jim O is correct about Qunin. His classic success the HSBC arena is built in an urban desert designed to get the suburban fans in and out of Buffalo as fast as possible. The only benefit has been to increase the property values of the News and HSBC.
There has not been any economic spin off around the arena. Look at other cities arenas and ball parks in urban settings
Baltimore supported Border Books in rebuilding an old power plant as one of its economic anchors in its harbor development. A totally different take on urban development, bars, bookstores, and cafes are very different from shotguns, bait, and boats.
As I have been saying from the get go Bass Pro is a classic urban planning rip off, $25 million to Bass Pro for what?
Also just look at what is going on around the project.
A third rate casino is being built down the block and park ramps for folks to get in and get out of the Buffalo as fast as possible.
One of the largest ethanol plants in the country is planned to be built 3/4 of a mile from the project. Ethanol plants smells to high heaven, and are dangerous. If the plant is built the Buffalo River will be filled with dozens of grain barrages going right by the Bass Pro, the new marina and the historic canal area. What is the water front development about tourism, recreation or re-industrialization?
Jim O. is right. This is about the same players playing the same game showing the same failed ideas to get at different piles of government (taxpayer) cash.
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:36 am
Great point Steve!! I wonder how many nay-sayers have actually been inside a Bass Pro store at all?? Donn?? how about it?? Larry Quinn also has been instrumental in something called the BUFFALO SABRES. Related business or not he is very successful as Managing Partner in that endeavor. Why not follow success?? Another of his projects was the Erie Basin Marina, this guy is a builder, let him build!! NTB, Esmonde brought up South Street Seaport as a success story, not me. I was just pointing out the huge differences in the two locations. Anyway it all comes down to another project that has tumbleweeds blowing through it like the Main St. pedestrian mall, or something that attracts crowds of people to at least give business a chance at sustaining itself.
BK Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:40 am
“His classic success the HSBC arena is built in an urban desert designed to get the suburban fans in and out of Buffalo as fast as possible.”
I love you people. If the United States decided to relocate the White House to Utica and Main, you would scream that the pre-existing Burger King was a classic example of 1980s architecture and that another government building would take too much property tax money off the books.
Where else was the HSBC Arena going to be built? Orchard Park, maybe? Amherst? Lots of available land out there, and Lord knows they’d be glad to have it. Maybe we should have built it next door to Pano’s, in the heart of the Elmwood Village, where only the coolest and most preservation-friendly Buffalonians (none of whom drive cars, of course) could enjoy it. Oops, no, wait…
The whole point of the waterfront project is to eliminate the urban desert. it’s a solid, well-designed plan. If you want to invest in artists and boutiques, take a look at what’s happening on Main St. with the ArtSpace project — that can be our newest funky, thriving, boutique neighborhood. Or work to revitalize the Black Rock and Riverside neighborhoods. Plenty of history to preserve out there. Or come up with a solid plan to repopulate South Buffalo, or to save the East Side - which, if you look at a map of Buffalo, is half of our damn city - from the hopelessness of blight, crime, drugs and poverty.
But leave your quaint, brick-petting, corporate-hating, knee-jerk obstructionist hands off of my waterfront! You people already ruined the chance for a beautiful hotel at Forest and Elmwood. If you screw up our waterfront, I will speak ill of this city forever - and I’ll probably have to do it from Charleston or Atlanta or Phoenix or Dallas or wherever I’ll have to move when this dying city finally kicks off because we were too busy fighting over which hose to use while the remnants of this once-great metropolis burned.
NTB Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:42 am
Seems to me that there is a growing elitism associated with the opposition to the proposed project that doesn’t really fit with Buffalo’s image of blue collar friendliness.
God. Everytime someone opposes this project, the “elitism” charge rears its ugly head. Here’s the point: My “elitism” absolutely doesn’t matter. What matters are the pragmatics of supporting development that will spur more development. It is so bloody obvious that if you were to make a list of possible retail establishments to support in order to build retail synergy and a healthy downtown, giant hunting and fishing stores would come in near the bottom, along with fireworks marts and dirt track racing ovals. I think you’d admit that in the grand scheme of things , Bass Pro customers are far less likely than shoppers at any sort of imaginable store to have an active interest in downtown eating, shopping, hotels, cultural opportunities. Can we at least agree on this? They are by definition rural types, interested in outdoors, non-urban activities. This isn’t elitism - it’s just the obvious demographic fact.
If I was trying to grow a tiny rural town, I wouldn’t think that I ginormous Barnes and Noble or H&M would be the best bet. Likewise, when we’re trying to develop the downtown of a city - a small but potentially dense urban core - I think we could find a lot better fit than Bass Pro.
The “elitism” charge depends upon some sort of very silly sense that the city’s supporting the development of this thing out of some sense of retail diversity for its own sake. This is not the case. The sole purpose of this is to redevelop the downtown - we need to make decisions based on what will work.
(Finally, parenthetically, on the big box topic again: I’ve gone to IKEA in Burlington, ON probably 10 times over the past two years. Do you know how many times I’ve visited a single other establishment in Burlington during those trips? Once - we bought tylenol at the Shoppers Drug Mart in the mall across the highway… Home to IKEA to Home, straight roundtrip.
NTB Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:59 am
For the record, I am not an “obstructionist” at all. I support, very strongly, both the Elmwood hotel (jesus does that piss me off) and the Gates Circle building. In short, I’m all for creative destruction. I just have a hard time understanding what Bass Pro is going to do for the city, especially considering what has gone into bringing it here, and in light of other things that might be done with that barren but important piece of land.
amy Says:May 1st, 2007 at 12:05 pm
The Bass Pro would be located right at the waterfront. How could that NOT be a good thing? It’s definitely a relevant development, moreso than a Barnes and Noble, which is moving in at the Galleria mall (so why would people need to go to Buffalo to shop there?)
“Bass Pro customers are far less likely than shoppers at any sort of imaginable store to have an active interest in downtown eating, shopping, hotels, cultural opportunities.”
That’s being a little stereotypical don’t you think? Fishers have to eat too! And not all of them bring a boxed lunch!
And if you think that we could find a lot better than Bass Pro, would you mind explaining why we don’t currently have a Barnes & Noble or an H&M? Oh, that’s right…Buffalo, as it is right now, can’t support that type of retail store. We need to work our way up to it and show people that a large store can work in this area. I hardly think H&M would make its way in given the state of downtown as it is now.
“I’ve gone to IKEA in Burlington, ON probably 10 times over the past two years. Do you know how many times I’ve visited a single other establishment in Burlington during those trips? Once - we bought tylenol at the Shoppers Drug Mart in the mall across the highway… Home to IKEA to Home, straight roundtrip.”
Here’s a newsflash: you are not representative of the general masses. Unlike you, there may be some who would drive to Burlington and take a look at the sites. I first went to Burlington last year (for Ikea) and am planning more trips to that area to check out all of the attractions. Had it not been for Ikea, I wouldn’t have even thought of Burlington. Now that I’ve seen it and know what’s out there, I’m going back to see more. Maybe you should do the same.
I agree with BK; don’t ruin this for us. You people are the reason that Buffalo is the way it is. We can’t get any new development without someone protesting it.
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 1st, 2007 at 12:19 pm
NTB…Please visit a Bass Pro store and you will see “the light” and most every other consumer good imaginable. You are very much mistaken on your “by definition rural-types” I respect your point of view but not your research. To give you a counter to your IKEA “personal” story, I have never ever touched a gun or bow in my life, but Bass Pro is on our list of “must stops” in Florida when we go down there. So much so that we visited one in Nashville as well. I have a lot of clothing and different appliances from Bass Pro none of which are related in the least to hunting or fishing. You must understand it is DESTINATION store that attracts way beyond it’s core demographics. That is why is so unique. It cuts across all demographics. The only valid argument to be made is the saturation of stores within a travel radius from us. That is why we need to get this going and build it now!!
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 1st, 2007 at 12:20 pm
We need to better protect Buffalo for Hummer driving, radio pundits, and mouth pieces for corporate welfare.
Let’s see how we can next eliminate all descent in Buffalo, control all public opinion, lock step, and marginalize and further empower the wealthy few.
If Larry Quinn or Mindy Rich told me that the cost of a hammer was $500 than I wouldn’t buy that either. In New York City people would laugh at anybody that proposed using our taxes to pay for enticing Bass Pro to build in Battery Park.
I would have been more in favor of our tax dollars going to the Latina Supermarket and having another grocery store in Buffalo than seeing $130 million of our tax dollars being used as the bait for Corporate Park or Old Mall River in the most historic area of Buffalo.
A wise city would invest more in public education, small business, creating cheap energy, investing in better public transportation.
One stick is easily broken. A bunch of sticks tightly bundled becomes nearly unbreakable.
Those who want to control want to see that every group that opposes selfish interests are demonized and minimized.
We have become accustomed to being spoon fed bad information. Instead of advancing a pluralistic and inclusive government with diversity of opinion we have a government for and by corporations and the military/industrial complex. Democracy is being portrayed now on web forums, newspapers, radio stations, and on television as friction and a danger to our freedom.
Larry Quinn and Mindy Rich cannot be critizised on WNY Media nor on the Sandy Beach and Tom Bauerle shows yet Mayor Byron Brown or Tim Tielman are fair game for constant and rude comments of every sort and shape. They throw everything at them but the kitchen sink.
We have a current project being built to save our most important history and out of the clear blue comes a massive campaign of deceit and corporate welfare. The Bass Pro blitzkriege takes the profits from the Niagara Power Project and redistributes these profits into another corporations pocket. Instead of WNY having control of the electricity created in our community we have the highest power bills. Instead of having the historic Erie Canal District and talking proud of Buffalo we have obstructionists with weapons of mass destruction.
Meanwhile USA Today wrote yesterday about the Ebola of Great Lakes fishing diseases spreading rapidly and destructively in all our lakes. Yet not one Buffalo media outlet store can make the connection to massive fish die offs and the poor decision to look at the long term mistake of investing millions of our tax dollars into one fishing recreational store. Somebody try to get somebody to connect those dots now and not later when we are all shaking our heads again and acting like we are helplessly unable to do anything other than watch a kick go wide right.
In a capitalistic society fair trade works best. To subsidize Bass Pro is unfair to Dicks and small sports stores. The tax payers money in this community should not be taken and doled out to hand picked corporations. Construction projects that are built with public money should be up for public bid.
The Erie Canal Project was under construction and was in the second stage nearing completion. It is wrong to disrupt the current implementation of the establishment of the Buffalo historic Erie Canal District and impose this bait and switch con game in the eleventh hour. It is wrong to manipulate and control the media and deny facts to be presented by people in the city and nation who have worked and been involved in improving their community before Larry Quinn or Mindy Rich stepped in to impose the People’s Park of Bass Pro.
We should not be running sprints but a marathon in this world of global competition. To cheer on this Bass Pro myth is to buy slickly sold snake oil.
To speak out and oppose this Bass Pro confabulatory propaganda demonstratescivic pride and fortifies the body politic. To act like the White House Press Corps in 2002 is to empower the loss of our freedom and everything that our nation stands for.
Artvoice next year should have a local Best Jeffersonian Award for the person or organization that stands in the face of harsh adversity and fights for free speech and a government for and by the people.
The press in this nation should be brave like those firefighters who rushed into the World Trade Center on 911.
steve Says:May 1st, 2007 at 1:26 pm
WTF?? Who, exactly, is stifling public debate? If there is one thing we do well (or at least often) in this community, it is debate. We don’t actually build much, but we sure debate the hell out of things.
Citizen, I thought the so-called “original” Erie Canal Project was horrible from the get-go, but I don’t remember Esmonde or Tielman or others being awfully concerned with my concern on how my public dollars were being spent. Let’s be clear that it was all public dollars.
There is a place for historic tourism in what should be a broad menu of economic revitalization efforts. There also should be place for iconic retail, yes, even on our waterfront.
NTB — “…Bass Pro customers are far less likely than shoppers at any sort of imaginable store to have an active interest in downtown eating, shopping, hotels, cultural opportunities. Can we at least agree on this? They are by definition rural types, interested in outdoors, non-urban activities.”
You’re kidding, right? What dictionary are you using for definitions? Are “urban types” not interested in outdoor activities? If so, why do we need Delaware Park? If not, then why do so many of them seem to flock to LL Bean in Freeport. That store, after all, is open 24 hours a day. These rural types you mention, do they not occassionally eat at restaurants? See a movie? Buy clothing?
If you are concerned about the “elitism” charged being thrown your way, you might want to stop drawing such broad generalizations.
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 1st, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Taxes should be used to pay for schools and cultural icons specifically like the Historic Erie Canal project, The Canal Project was in the process of being restored before it was thrown into disorder. The public treasury should be used to rebuild the infrastructure of this city and not to unfairly finance and give any corporation an unfair competitive advantage in the free market, capitalistic system that makes this country as great as it is. We should not be handing out money to private corporations. The stock holders of Bass Pro are not the government of Buffalo.
It is wrong to pay a business that manufacturers violins or kazoos or chewing gum or fishing gear to locate their business in our community. What compounds this error in judgement is when we destroy our history for a private corporation on top of that. The history of our Erie Canal Terminus offers a world class opportunity to turn around this city beyond the short sighted Old Mall River flawed concept.
Bass Pro was not in the planning process two years ago and has no right to now step in and be plunked down in the midst of an excellent, planned project. To go through with the Bass Pro concept is disruptive and wasting public time and money. The Erie Canal Project that was being constructed and implemented.
We should attract people from all economic sectors to Buffalo. It is vital that we do this by selling many small lots off and thereby recreate the tried and true model that boosts high urban density. The Bass Pro way is bankrupt in the urban core and based on cheap fuel and the automobile. The world is changing based on global trade but also on the need to also preserve and protect our planet. Bass Pro is a store oriented towards duplicating surburban strip mall development We have a giant department store that once was called A.M. & A.’s standing idle on Main Street and we now have Latina’s Super Market sitting here too. Neither one of these business’s ever received this huge and wild tax payer give away. Turn A.M.A.’s back into your department store but without massive tax payer subsidies to bribe them to come here. What will attract more business is innovative policies that look forward into the future and build upon the true icon that far surpasses the potential that Bass Pro offers in the historic Canal District. I suggest instead that a Bass Pro be shifted over to the area of the old train terminal but not with $130 millions dollars from our pocket. Now we have to build Bass Pro for the Bass Pro corporation and tare down the auditorium and the Donovan building for more parking too? What do we want for Buffalo a parking lot landscape for a store that is about fishing? Are you also willing to risk huge amounts of our taxes on this big fishing store despite the massive spread of VHS (ebola like) fish disease in the Great Lakes. If you don’t think about this big problem in our back yard than one better become more prudent with our spending. Yesterday in USA Today there was an article about the Ebola Great Lakes fish disease spreading. Don’t ignore that fact before we buy something that we can no longer use here like we used to. I would rather see some of our tax money used to preserve Great Lakes fishing than to save a fishing corporation.
The original Erie Canal project called for the burial of the Erie Canal Terminus and had no consideration of the significant historical foot print in that area. Remember we were told before that the rocks in the Buffalo breakwall spontaneously explode in the winter. That idea is no different than dreaming about big parking lots gone wild. The history of the Quakers and Efner at the Terminus of the Erie Canal where we are told Bass Pro should now instead be built surpasses the ordinary and examplfies the unordinary and what is best in America and the U.S. We have a diamond in the rough being slowly pulled back out of the ground. This is our Roman Forum or our pyramids. We might not have Ceasar’s temples or Ramses pyramids but we have this one place where men would not allow other to be denied their rights as men and women. Efner was a freedom fighter and this man’s struggle should be taught to every single school child in our community and country. We need to build on critical thinking and seek to raise up those who dedicate themselves to humanity and justice. This is the kind of history that makes our country strong and worth fighting for. Hold up the story of Efner at the Erie Canal Terminus and we will be known as the greatest city on this planet. Bass Pro has nothing to truly do with this history. We should reveal the passion of our freedom fighting story and a dreamer named Dewitt Clinton who built a canal that became like the silk road to China. They said he was foolish too. He looked forward into doing things right that aided commerce and trade. He didn’t build the business establishments along the canal. That’s not the job of public government. So to today we should dream big and go dense in planning. Let’s get smart in Buffalo and use history and the water gift to our advantage.
The country is where food should be grown. The city is where commerce and trade should be conducted. The environment of this planet now is crying out to rethink big business ways that despoil this earth and use subsidies like our air, water, and history in a wasteful inefficient process. Bass Pro is not the foundation we need to build upon. The strength we have to life up this community is in the history of the Terminus of the Erie Canal. If we get back to the basics of urban planning than we solidify a community by encouaging closeness in living space and trade. We can foster community only by togetherness based on these prime components. It is inefficient to plow millions into Bass Pro and degrade the current project that has been under construction.
LL Bean shouldn’t be built in Buffalo with $130 million dollars of our tax money either.
Buffalowatchdog Says:May 1st, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Not to interrupt this facinating conversation, but for the record:
“Larry Quinn and Mindy Rich cannot be critizised on WNY Media nor on the Sandy Beach and Tom Bauerle shows yet Mayor Byron Brown or Tim Tielman are fair game for constant and rude comments of every sort and shape.”
Thats just not true…
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 1st, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Buffalo Citizen..”The country is where food should be grown. The city is where commerce and trade should be conducted.” Please wake up from your snooze and climb to the observation deck on top of City Hall. Look directly east. You will see that most of the population and retail commerce has moved about 5 miles east and the first “country” you get to is about 10 miles east of that. This means business and people have moved away!! Retail business has no interest in being where the population ISN’T. To attract them you need to subsidize their risks. Or we can save the subsidies and build another Main Place Pedestrian Mall. Have you been there? It is so quaint and respectful of it’s history..it’s also DESOLATE!! Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy but it’s a commercial dead zone.
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pm
One more idea to add to the mix.
“I insist that wealth in the age of flatness will incresingly gravitate to those countries who get three basic things right: the infrastructure to connect as efficently and speedily as possible with the flat world platform, the right education programs and knowledge skills to empower more of their people to innovate and do value-added work on that platform, and finally, the right governance- that is, the right policies, the right investment and trade laws, the right support for research, the right intellectual property laws, and, most of all, the right inspirational leadership- to enhance and manage the flow with the flat world.” -The World Is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman
We who see how Buffalo’s Terminus of the Erie Canal was in itself the beginning of world change. That is the true history of this area. Our intellectual property is our history in the Erie Canal District. We sadly lack inspirational leadership in the likes of Larry Quinn. Mindy Rich has a conflict of interest concerning public access issues to waterfront porperty by her community in Point Abino denying beach walking access in Fort Erie to both Canadians and U.S. citizens. She is biased and not inclusive to water front access to our lakes. We have inspirational leadership in this community when our leaders work in unison with the historic, artistic, creative, and business community and work out the problems democratically in a way that is more than window dressing. This process was going on until Larry Quinn and Bass Pro derailed the entire process. The imposed Bass Pro is terrible flawed and counter to mutual excepted planning that came from citizens and those who fought from day one to give Buffalo the best revival in it’s history based on intelligent and uplifting discoveries and relationships based on doing what was better for all segments of our community.
That process was wrongfully sabotaged to the greater detriment of everyone in this community. The song that we all remember is the Erie Canal and not this bad jingle called Bass Pro.
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 1st, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Mike the problem with the subway is that it doesn’t connect to Lancaster. Yes I agree that the subway down Main Street is part of another problem imposed on the City of Buffalo. It should have been constructed to allow cars to mix with it like in Toronto. Bass Pro is more of the Main Place Pedestrian Mall. As I said this Bass Pro does not create a densely populated area with a community of living spaces and small business instead it creates essentially a mall for parking cars instead of a mall for running a train. It’s about putting together sticks and bringing togeter community consensus and ownership of downtown again, Remember it easy to break a stick by itself but take a bundle of sticks together and try to break it. Yes people moved eastward and other directions out of our cities because it became easy to do with highways for automobiles instead of good cities for people. The infrastucture shifted and gas was cheap. Now we find ouselves stuck in that rut and involved in foreign meddling instead of innovation and education policies that take us out of the box thinking.
The whole idea in Buffalo should find the ways and means to make this city a place that people desire to live in and raise their families. An excellent start was what was going on until Bass Pro got dropped on Buffalo like an piece of space debris.
Buffalwatchdog I stand by what I said. Yesterday I took about 30 seconds of Beach’s ranting and turned it off. WNY Media deleted the two posts of the Buffalo News cartoon that I responded to and correctly identified as blatant propaganda. I swear Imus says and writes some of the things that I read praising Larry and Mindy’s wisdom and degrading citizens who are not part of their public relations campaign. You think that the Mayor’s son did some harm to to this community. What is the media doing to Buffalo when they are bised or do not fully and accurately report news and fixate on crime and sports stories. They are sitting and watching and not critically examining this story. Maybe people should feel more empathy towards pan handling corporations and pride in those who give away the deed to the property and everything inside of it.
Do not misunderstand my feelings about the Rich family. They have contributed more than their fair share to our community. This time they are taking us down a one way street and charging us $130 million for passage. Tielman has also contributed immeasurable to making this community a better place to reside. He has played a crucial part in the creation of a renewed Erie Canal District and done so because of his passion for saving historical things and places that would be disappered faster than you could whistle. What I hear is total and constant slamming of those who oppose instead of going along for a ride or on the gravy train.
TseTse Says:May 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Well BP you must be striking a nerve somewhere. They are starting to swarm to your site to defend their defenseless positions with nauseating hyperbole. By the way who is this sad sad person whinning about not being able to walk on Mindy Riche’s beach?
Buffalowatchdog Says:May 1st, 2007 at 6:46 pm
no no no
we did not delete anything… they were unpublished temporarily while we tried to figure out some web site issues…
But they were never deleted and are still there today
Spade Says:May 1st, 2007 at 9:30 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHA I’ve herd everything now. the ditch at the end of main has been compared to the Pyramids. Man you must be smoking some good weed.
Eric Says:May 1st, 2007 at 10:26 pm
This is an absolute joke. To say debate has been stifled is interesting given that in most thriving metropolitan cities, like here in San Francisco, there is little to no debate on retail development. This has just become another political football for people like Jim Ostrowski and Donn Esmonde and all these other fools to grandstand on their pet topic (i.e. the “political class,” “big box” stores, and “green space”). When I explain this situation to those outside Buffalo, or I send them articles on new developments or developments being thwarted they either look at me in astonishment or laugh. I sincerely hope this project moves forward and these grand-standers, who are no better than the politically connected and entrenched at this point, fall by the way side.
steve Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Citizen — Do you really believe that telling the “real story” of the Erie Canal terminus will “make us the greatest city on the planet?”
I guess I’m missing something, especially whatever it is you’re smoking.
Sorry, but the hyperbole filter has reached its limit.
Jim Ostrowski Says:May 1st, 2007 at 11:53 pm
“I am not an “obstructionist—
There is no Bass Pro deal so there is nothing to obstruct. Those who use that term are obstructing a conversation. There was a serious lack of conversation before all the prior failed “deals” that the power elite put together for the last fifty years.
Keep talking. Talk is good. Don’t trust those who say otherwise.
NTB Says:May 2nd, 2007 at 1:33 am
And if you think that we could find a lot better than Bass Pro, would you mind explaining why we don’t currently have a Barnes & Noble or an H&M?
Well, for one thing, we haven’t thrown $160 million dollars, or whatever the final figure is, at them. This is the central point - if businesses want to move in of their own accord, that’s great. But if we’re going to spend enormous pots of cash to get them here, as a Buffalo taxpayer, I’d like to make sure that they’re going to have their promised effect.
Here’s a newsflash: you are not representative of the general masses. Unlike you, there may be some who would drive to Burlington and take a look at the sites. I first went to Burlington last year (for Ikea) and am planning more trips to that area to check out all of the attractions. Had it not been for Ikea, I wouldn’t have even thought of Burlington. Now that I’ve seen it and know what’s out there, I’m going back to see more. Maybe you should do the same.
Amy: when you actually do go and visit extra-IKEA Burlington, please do report back. Vague plans aren’t really applicable here - very easy to say that now. I’ll bet if we took a poll of how many Buffalo-to-IKEA drivers visit the rest of the city, we’d find the numbers don’t look too great. Are your friends constantly going on about the delightful day they spent at the Tim Horton’s Burlington? Restaurant recommendations? I’m glad you’re such an open minded person, but I think you’re in the minority.
Steve:
You’re kidding, right? What dictionary are you using for definitions? Are “urban types†not interested in outdoor activities? If so, why do we need Delaware Park? If not, then why do so many of them seem to flock to LL Bean in Freeport. That store, after all, is open 24 hours a day. These rural types you mention, do they not occassionally eat at restaurants? See a movie? Buy clothing?
Well, sure, the store in Freeport. That’s a special store (I used to go when I was a kid, when we took the ferry to visit my mom’s side in Nova Scotia…) But we’re not getting the “Freeport” equivalent here, but rather the, dunno, Marlton NJ LLBean. We don’t have pride of place here… People aren’t going to make nation crossing pilgrimages to visit the Bass Pro Buffalo. Christ, the Rochester folks will probably still go to the Auburn outlet. Let’s stay realistic: we are not getting the Freeport LLBean. And just to head off another line of discussion: they’ve got a Bass Pro in Toronto already. So forget the loonie bearing masses from further away than St. Catherines.
And, no, I doubt that many LLBeanies stay to watch movies in Freeport. Maybe they eat in a restaurant, but likely they just head on to wherever they’re going next… But again, this is not going to be a Freeport equivalent, which is a one of a kind store… Pilgrimage spots like that, unfortunately, have to be home grown…
And Mike:
So much so that we visited one in Nashville as well. I have a lot of clothing and different appliances from Bass Pro none of which are related in the least to hunting or fishing. You must understand it is DESTINATION store that attracts way beyond it’s core demographics. That is why is so unique. It cuts across all demographics
Is the Bass Pro website representative of the store stock? Because it sure does look like a hunting and fishing store to me. Very strange this thread of “it sells all things to all people, it contains multitudes… I buy my appliances there. It will attract beyond its core demographic…” I will probably visit once - my dad already ordered my high necked rubber boots for Xmas from their online store (which was very strange to open - he’s not from Buffalo, and thus has no idea what BP means around here… At first I thought it was some sort of a joke, but he had no idea why I’d think this..) And again, it will be a “destination” only to those who don’t already live near one of the many BP stores in the region: Auburn, TO. I mean, I can’t wait to see the flood from Erie, PA and Jamestown. But all this money and effort for that trickle? Come on….
NTB Says:May 2nd, 2007 at 1:42 am
Oh, and one more thing for Steve:
You’re kidding, right? What dictionary are you using for definitions? Are “urban types†not interested in outdoor activities? If so, why do we need Delaware Park?
Um, I go to Delaware Park daily. I have no need of any guns, fishing equipment, outdoors outfits, appliances, or any other equipment of any sort. I have, as of yet, never camped over night there, and (my wife willing) I will never need to… I think most of the “urban types” who utilize Delaware Park are in the same boat…
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 2nd, 2007 at 8:56 am
NTB…”Is the Bass Pro website representative of the store stock? Because it sure does look like a hunting and fishing store to me.”
I thought so. Doing research from the comfort of your living room. It is kind of intellectually flawed.
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 2nd, 2007 at 8:33 pm
First and foremost why is it our responsibilty to prop up a corporation with our money that was collected in taxes? Why do we have to engage in corporate welfare and not allow a fair and balenced free market place? Did Dick’s Sporting Goods or other small business establisments in WNY such as Buffalo Outfitters, Dave’s Baut & Tackle Shop, Niagra Outdoors, Oak Orchard Fly Shop Inc., P. & L. Sports Center, Rainbow Sports get the same unfair business advantage from public funds? In my opinion this is engaging in unfair trade and using public funds for investing in private corporations. I have heard of risking ones life for their country but not risking ones taxes for corporate profit.
Second Mrs Mindy Rich has a conflict of interest and should be removed from the board that came up with the plan for Bass Pro to be paid to come to Buffalo. This board was supposed to be about development and access to our Buffalo waterfront. Mindy Rich has a conflict of interest involving public access to the waterfront.
The Rich family owns a home in Fort Erie on Lake Erie in Point Albino. That community is gated and restricts access to the shoreline of Lake Erie and the Point Abino lighthouse. It is exclusive to deny people the right to walk on the shoreline of waters protected by the Internation Joint Commission.
Last year a law suit in the State of Michigan courts resulted in the opening of all shorelines in the State of Michigan. In England this law of passage allows British citizens to cross the estates of royality. People in the Great Lakes do not want to visit the Rich home but only wish to walk along the shoreline freely and have access to the water. The water, air, shorelines, and freedom of speech should not be managed by those with the most money in our nation or city.
Currently a bill is before the Ontario Provincial government to give Canadian citizens right of passage which the Rich family denies in Point Albino.
http://shorewalk.ca/
Third there is no hyperbole about the VHS ebola disease in fish spreading throughout the Great Lakes watershed. The zebra mussel spread through the entire Great Lakes and westward and has done billions of dollars of damage. Before the New York Times and USA Today picked up on this there were newspapers throughout the western lakes publishing many articles about fish that are sick or dying off. There is no extravagant exaggeration about this issue. The hyperbole is not either in the levels of mercury that already makes it unsafe for children and pregnant women to consume Great Lakes fish. Nor is this chicken little the sky is falling when the State of Michigan seeks to ban ocean shipping from their territorial waters because of the outrageous damage that another corporation is doing to fish and the Great Lakes. I guess the recent suit filed against the State of Michigan by the shipping industry is obstructionism. If private citizens cannot use the public courts than neither can big business. We have to be fair or should we just make one set of laws that corporations do not have to abide by and another set of laws that makes all citizens strictly obey to the full letter of the law without exception? This is a rhetorical question but part of the discouse employed to critically allow oursleves to think and consider, what is going on in the Great Lakes, and how it is directly linked to our tax money being used to assist Bass Pro. It would be better for the greater good in the Great Lakes if money was more wisely spent on saving the sick fish and lakes instead of Bass Pro.
Here is an article from the Port Huron/The Times Herald published 6 April 2007:
http://www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070406/SPORTS/704060320/1006
Fourth:
“Citizen — Do you really believe that telling the “real story†of the Erie Canal terminus will “make us the greatest city on the planet?â€
Answer: Yes telling the full story about those like Efner and the shipping business and DeWitt Clinton will do just that. The negative spin of the history of the Erie Canal that I have read on this web page reads like it was written by Imus. It is not a complete and over all view of everything that occured on our old waterfront. I question the objectivity of writer’s in past history that supplied these words that are being used as the total over all view of Buffalo’s waterfront history. As for myself I think that it is incredible that a significant part of the Underground Railroad took place in the midst of the crime. If Buffalo’s waterfront was so bad than how did working citizens become wealthy merchants? Why were there shipping magnets that had offices looking out on Lake Erie for ships ladden with rich cargo? I know better than to believe all the worst that is being dragged up here by vested interests to smeer commercial and shipping activity that did in fact happen take place at the Termius of the Erie Canal in Buffalo.
“I guess I’m missing something, especially whatever it is you’re smoking.”
Answer: If I am smoking something it is all the soot coming from Sandy Beach’s Hummer or your so called clean buring smoke stakes that are making acid rain and filling the fish with mercury.
Sorry, but the hyperbole filter has reached its limit.
Answer: You should check your settings. They are off.
Fifth:
Why is there so much whinning when citizens of the United States ask questions about how their tax money is being spent on Bass Pro? We should be in less of a hurry and be more like Natty Bumpo than Hurry Harry. We have had 50 years of suffering caused by a multitude of bad decisions that were made by an elite group with fortune and power in Buffalo. We resist you as Americans. As a matter of fact that spineless book “Power Failure” talked to some of your local hero’s but didn’t print their names. It seams as if these corporate, and elected guys were part of the witness protection program. Maybe if these coups de projects did not get staged so often in Buffalo there would be true progress that takes into account long range planning and enlightened governance that is inclusive and more democratic instead of an oligarchy of dunces.
Those who have staged this latest coup and act like counter revelutionaries are desrupting the approved construction of the Erie Canal Terminus Project that was moving forward. It’s our turn. You have done too much damage already with the way that things have been done in the past beyond transparancy and by dictate.
Not one penny for your Bass Pro.
NTB Says:May 2nd, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Mike:
NTB…â€Is the Bass Pro website representative of the store stock? Because it sure does look like a hunting and fishing store to me.â€
I thought so. Doing research from the comfort of your living room. It is kind of intellectually flawed.
Can you answer the question? Is the website representative of the stuff sold in the store or not? Am I wrong to expect that it would be? I mean, I was shocked the first time I visited a Barnes and Noble - on the website, books and music, in the brick and mortar store, women’s shoes and lawn care products. But despite that I just assumed, in this case, with Bass Pro, it was a safe bet.
Mike from Lancaster Says:May 3rd, 2007 at 8:54 am
NTB..The BP website is NOT representative of the brick and mortar version for EXACTLY the same reason we need them (any mass retailer) in the Canal District. The website is geared to their core demographics, yes the hunting and fishing group. BUT the store HAS to attract beyond that group to generate deeper sales because of the greater operational costs. Look, sorry for getting so worked up, but this community always seems to have groups who just don’t want things to change. In this case I see this as groups wanting a nice downtown historical park without nasty parking garages and hordes of swarming people littering the cobblestones. Why is this a BP or NO BP and a nice historical district question? Why can’t we have both?? Since this is going to be a “reproduction” build-out the BP building plans seem to be true to this idea. Same with any parking garages. They can and are built with facades to blend right into the urban landscape. It doesn’t matter if it is BP or any other retailer but we NEED A BIG DRAW to come down there,(especially in winter).
Buffalo Citizen Says:May 3rd, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Go to Philadelphia where Constitutional Hall and see the hordes of people that come to see historical sites. Continue the Erie Canal development as is. Do the present project and they will come. People will travel to Buffalo to see history. The history that built this city into a world class city is what people will come to see and not the negative stuff. You are looking at the kick gone wide right and not the effort or the hero stories of anti slavers. builders of ships, commerce, and industry.
Put Bass Pro by the old train terminal or somebody else that is willing to invest their money and not with our tax money. We supply the infrastructure and they supply the capital and take the risk.
Create the infrastucture for a small business district with apartments/condo’s/retail. Put sign’s in the ground and sell small areas off and rebuild this area to resemble what was there. We bombed German and Japanese city to foundations and ashes and these people found a way to rebuild what was there. Are we only good at making war and not at recapturing our own history. Listen to the wisdom of Jane Jacobs.
No corporate bribes with government tax money.