Reports of the Broadway Market’s Demise
The WNYMedia.net frontpage rebuts the comments here and elsewhere about the Broadway Market’s alleged lack of viability and imminent demise.
The Broadway Fillmore Alive people were saddened and taken aback by those comments.
As well they should have been. As Chris Byrd wrote,
And…come in around Easter…the Market is doing more than just hanging on for dear life…it is in the black…it is viable…and it has potential…
I said it before that a downtown flea market (they didn’t want to call it a “flea” market, incidentally) would be a great idea, if it started from the grassroots. Take a parking lot and transform it into a weekend flea market. As it grows, get a permit for the street. Or take over some adjacent parking lots (we’ve got enough of them downtown). Then, as it grows organically, start talking about other stuff. On the other hand, I don’t understand why the artisans and artists who would get a stall at the DL&W wouldn’t get a stall at Broadway Fillmore. I’m sure it’s not prohibitively expensive, and I’m sure that they could generate their own buzz and traffic just by using the web and posters and fliers.
It doesn’t have to be on the water or on Elmwood or Allen to be cool. It doesn’t have to use federal waterfront money to be cool. All you need is talent, publicity, and a location. For all the talk about a flea market downtown, how about someone actually set one up on a parking lot and see if it’ll work?
Pauldub Says:March 9th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
People reporting the demise of the Market obviously have not tried to find a parking spot there on a busy day.
Mike In WNY Says:March 9th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
That comment nails it.
BuffaloPundit Says:March 9th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Here’s a very sad comment from Buffalo Rising’s thread:
Pauldub Says:March 9th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Stellar content and excellent typing skills reveal the genius of that comment.
Adam K. Says:March 9th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
As sad as that guy’s comment is, He’s right about the area. I’m 22, and Broadway and Fillmore as known to people my age for its plentiful vendors and great selection: They have crack, cocaine, heroin, 50 types of pot, Ritalin, Vicodin, etc, and a great selection of gangs to sell it to you. I have not been there alone ever, and I would be nervous to go there alone.
Something downtown, where people aren’t afraid to get out of their cars, would be far more constructive towards the city’s future. As the Skyway and the Kensington get too busy to function, people with “money” jobs will get sick of the traffic and will start buying houses on the East Side again; close to downtown at first, and slowly spreading into what are now considered “bad” neighborhoods.
That’s called “Urban Renaissance”.
Attempts to force the process will actually slow it down, unless those attempts are focused on reducing crime and tearing down unwanted buildings. Not every building should stand forever.
jen Says:March 10th, 2007 at 12:16 am
I don’t think there is anyway to stop competition, which is what people see Newell’s market being for the Broadway Market. The best of luck to him; I think he has the best of intentions.
Of course it works the other way as well, the Broadway Market could steal his thunder, launch a marketing campaign to attract the suburbanites and Elmwood hipster crowd, apply for grant money to provide opportunities for small business to open in any empty areas, invite artists to sell their wares, in fact, I would say BM has the advantage because they are already up and running.
Derek J. Punaro Says:March 10th, 2007 at 10:04 am
The Broadway Market has steadily been undergoing a change in the Board of Directors, including the addition of Chris Byrd to the board. This will result in changes at the Market, which frankly has been stagnant for too long. The Broadway Market is a historical institution that means more to Buffalonians in it’s current state than a flea market at the DL&W ever will.
Here are my photos from last Easter. People will go to the Broadway Market, just as they’ll go to the Terminal if the right thing is there to attract them. The new Market board just needs to get the people coming back on a more frequent basis.
jen Says:March 10th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Great photos! Thanks for sharing.
Norwalk Says:March 10th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
So your proposal is to set up some kind of half-ass parking lot flea market and see if it works? Here’s the thing - when you do something half-ass, it rarely works. Of course, that ‘test’ would fail and it would have proved what? Doing stuff half-ass doesn’t make any sense? I think we’ll all concede that point now.
Do you think the Walden Galleria should have done a test run where they put an Orange Julius and a Footlocker in the parking lot to see if the market existed for a shopping outlet? Has anyone here ever run a business - holy hell?
I’m not sure everyone here understands, but not everything can be started small ‘from the grass roots.’ Some things need scale to work. Retail is one of those things. You rarely find a stand-alone store in an island of nothing ringing the register all day long. Instead, they cluster together to generate a shopping destination. In this day and age, with countless shopping choices around the WNY area, you can’t just set up some tables in a parking lot and hope for the best.
Unless, of course, you have no interest in succeeding. That said, if you think that’s the best approach, please go for it. I’ll show up - it’ll be worth the drive just to see that action.
And yea, the comment cited above is sad because it’s true. I have a dozen friends who all live in the City who don’t dare go over to the Broadway Market area except once a year - on Easter.
And if the Broadway Market means so much to Buffalonians, why is it suffering so much economically? Come on - the people who made it so vibrant and healthy 20-30 years ago don’t dare go back because they are scared. Doesn’t anyone here have Polish grandparents to talk to about this stuff?
BuffaloPundit Says:March 10th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
To the people who agree with the sentiment that no one goes to the Broadway Market because it’s in the “fucking ghetto”, I present some questions:
1. How does that explain the enormous Eastertime crowds? Does the “fucking ghetto” get any less “fucking” or “ghetto-y” in March and April?
2. Could you do me a favor and draw boundaries delineating Buffalo’s “fucking ghettoes”?
Norwalk, you call the idea of a parking lot flea market “half-assed”. Perhaps. But Buffalo has a very deep and rich history of huuuuuge ideas that fall flat on their asses if they ever happen at all. I would prefer half-assed success to huge ass-flat-falls.
jen Says:March 10th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Maybe the BM’s problem is people only think about it around Easter?
Michele J Says:March 10th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
I couldnt of said it better myself Pundit…
Reality Says:March 10th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Ask a cop how heavy Buffalo Police coverage is at the Broadway Market for Easter shopping. And if that’s the level of police coverage required to make people from outside that area feel safe shopping down there, tell me how the fuck that scales to 52 weeks out of the year.
Further, the Broadway market is an antiquated novelty. It’s an occasion-driven destination. It is completely uninformed by how modern people shop and what they shop for.
In a city that’s lost its collective shit because 6 black kids who started a fight and were suspended for 6 months returned to class, how are you going to turn the Broadway Market (which is, as far as most everyone with money who could sustain an urban market is concerned, is in the middle of the fucking ghetto) into a thriving center for shopping and hipster recreation and fun?
People already work downtown, especially near the DL&W. They work at 1 News Plaza. They work at HSBC bank and processing center. There’s already been significant progress made on the development of the inner harbor. The DL&W is right at the end of the light rail that suburban folks already use to go to Sabres games and concerts. There’s not enough residential density or destination allure to sustain the Broadway Market. Downtown is where there’s a development spark. It’s where lots of money is being spent. It’s where more and more young professionals and empty nesters want to live and play.
The DL&W Market is going to happen. And the Broadway Market will never be anything other than a quaint and nostalgic indulgence; a pilgrimage people take once a year under the guard of significantly increased police protection. And after they’ve had their yearly butter lamb and links or Redlinski’s sausage, it’s back to what modern professional/creative class find at Wegman’s and Premier and Globe and SPoT and Lexington Coop. This is the sensibility that must inform a contemporary urban market. And it needs to be in a place people are comfortable going and is in the middle of other development.
You guys know this. Why are you being so willfully stupid? Do you hate Newell that much? He started The Elmwood Art Festival. He started Buffalo Old Home Week. He started Buffalo Rising. And he’s going to start this. He has the experience, the contacts, the type of legacy that in this city definitely helps to get things done, the support and the experience. Hate all you want. It only makes you look stupid.
BuffaloPundit Says:March 10th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
You know, I’ve been to the BM dozens of times, both during and not during Eastertime, and I’ve never had so much as a piece of gum get stuck to my shoe.
“Modern people” don’t go to specialty markets to get meat from an actual butcher, etc?
That’s quite the fascinating non-sequitur about the kids. As for the “thriving center for shopping…”, I guess there’s no point in even trying, eh? That’s what we do in this town, is just give up on certain swaths of the community because there’s somewhere closer to where the hipsters are. What patent disrespect to the people working hard to change and better the east side.
I thought the point of Newell’s market was a weekend destination, in which case I don’t get the point about where people work, since that bit of downtown is a ghost town sans Sabres game on the weekend. Broadway Fillmore actually has loads more residential density than the area behind the HSBC arena, last time I checked, although it certainly doesn’t have the “destination allure” of “upstairs from the rail depot”.
So, let’s just give up and tear down the entirety of the East side because it isn’t the “sensibility that must inform a contemporary urban market”, whatever the hell that means. The Broadway Market can be transformed into what you describe. Too bad some people don’t want to bother with anything east of Main.
I didn’t realize Newell had a publicist.
Derek J. Punaro Says:March 10th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
How ironic that the hipsters that constantly feel the need to convince non-urbanites that it’s safe to come downtown themselves need to be convinced to come to the East Side. It’s odd, though, that these people are parading themselves around as “Newellites”. Newell doesn’t have any problems coming to the East Side himself.
Reality Says:March 10th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Funny how someone so quick to cry non-sequitor has no problem leaning on anecdotal evidence to try to make a point.
Of course they do. And they even regularly travel to and support butchers in parts of the city far from Elmwood Avenue. And there are at least 5 butchers that come to mind in safer neighborhoods and with offerings of the same or better quality than what can be had at the Broadway Market.
Not a non-sequitur at all. The story about the kids highlights the fear and tacit racism of people in this region. The story has caught on like wildfire because it affirms the lame choices made by provincial “oldsters” who live in Amherst and Orchard Park and Clarence. If this many people are freaked out about 6 kids going back to school after starting a fight and being suspended for half a year, what makes you think people are ready to regularly visit one of the darker, least desirable, least developed, most frightening parts of the city?
You don’t get the point because you don’t want to. In good weather, people walk the waterfront. People are used to the area the DL&W is in because it’s where they go for concerts and Sabres games. It’s where they or some of their acquaintances work. It’s not far from where suburban empty-nesters are coming to live. It’s increasingly becoming a part of town people with money are comfortable coming to.
You really think this restored and slightly reinvented as a market with museums, restaurants, flea markets and stands occupied by more established vendors there for the weekend, on the water and in a part of the city people are comfortable going to for events already and right at the end of the metro rail is less attractive than Broadway Market? Maybe, it’s aesthetic sensibility and knowledge of the built environment like that that gets you through the night (as well as through that long commute) in your MacMansion in Clarence.
Again, someone so eager to find non-sequiturs really should be much better at spotting their own use of logical fallacy. No one said anything about razing the East Side.
And if you think all of the East Side is like the neighborhood the Broadway Market calls home, you’re just as provincial and ignorant of the City as your average Bauerle caller.
And which one is it? Do you not know what the hell I mean by “”sensibility that must inform a contemporary urban market”? If not, then how can you also argue that the Broadway Market can be transformed into the very thing you claim to not understand?
CB Says:March 11th, 2007 at 12:02 am
I am reposting the following from broadwayfillmorealive.org comment…’tis by Pam Arbogast…who lives in B-F…she is an uber gal…works for Urban League…
gabe Says:March 11th, 2007 at 3:11 am
As I’ve said before, the question of a proposed downtown “hipster flea market” conflicting with the Broadway market is a non-issue, at least until public $$ might get involved. The former is focused on food. The latter, most likely on arts, crafts, antiques, ect…..Although what it will really be like is still rather fuzzy. At this point it’s still in the “Hey dude, let’s put some cool shit in this bigass superawesome grand old building.” phase.
Eastside boosters don’t fear….The hipster flea would most likely cater to a different culture/demographic (folks with few if any ties to the former Polish East Side) group than the Broadway Market.
I’m pretty much in agreement with BP’s take on this and have voiced my own criticisms to Newell’s idea based on the logistical and viability concerns of trying to create such a big draw in a desolate fringe area of downtown that politicians and people who read these blogs call the “Cobblestone District.” The rest of WNY probably better knows this area as “Where to park for Sabres games.”
What scares me the most on this matter is the admitted willingness of the hipsterflea dude(s) to accept public $$$ to get this questionable concept off the ground. Kind of makes sense how they are now latching onto the whole waterfront revitalization public works scheme. IMHO, there are worthier recipients for such aide. Perhaps the Broadway Market is relevant to this conversation….
BuffaloPundit Says:March 11th, 2007 at 7:43 am
You know, I’ve been to the BM dozens of times, both during and not during Eastertime, and I’ve never had so much as a piece of gum get stuck to my shoe.
I didn’t see any statistical evidence in your claim of B-F being as dangerous as you claimed, so my retort is as valid as your original point. For what either is worth.
So it all comes down to the neighborhood. Sorry, I think you called it “fucking ghetto”.
Your non-sequitur is now attempting to jack the whole thread. If you want to discuss this issue, perhaps you’d like to do so in the comment thread under the post I did on it. There is some quaint irony, though, I suppose in complaining about the region’s racism whilst in the next breath affirming the fact that people won’t go buy sausage in the dangerous “fucking ghetto”, which is “darker” than other parts of the city. You don’t have a problem with that, yet you have a problem with people’s negative reaction to kids beating the shit out of other kids. Someone’s priorities sound dramatically out of whack.
Plenty of people are very comfortable going to the Bway Market during Eastertime. If the flea market came there, perhaps it would introduce the Bway Market to a whole new, younger, more affluent demographic and might even help un”fucking ghetto-fy” that neighborhood. You don’t get that point because you don’t want to.
Cracking wise about me makes your point for you, does it? Must be sweet, posting for the first time under a pseudonym so I can’t respond in kind.
The Broadway Market has been established in its location since 1888. It is cursed with an ugly building, but perhaps with an infusion of money and interest something could be done about that. Buffalo Rising likes to highlight things on the east side that comports with its sensibilities - Coe Place & Artspace, the Central Terminal goings-on, and certain neighborhoods that aren’t decimated by blight and violence. (South Buffalo and some other neighborhoods are almost constantly ignored). The Broadway Market might get a mention at Eastertime, as it does in most traditional media.
Buffalo and Erie County aren’t growing people. I don’t know whether people would flock to the DL&W on the weekend, because apart from Sabres games and occasional street festivals, people don’t flock downtown for anything on the weekend. That’s why I suggested that this downtown waterfront market start out smaller and grow organically before we start spending loads of money to renovate it.
Would a market in the DL&W be just swell? Why, sure it would. Has anyone done a marketing or demographic study to determine its viability? Has anyone even bothered to consider whether a hipster flea market in Broadway Fillmore might succeed? Why is there a comparison to the St Lawrence Market in Newell’s post? The St Lawrence sells mostly food and kitchen items - its flea market is on Sundays (when the food market is closed) and it’s located in a decidedly shittier building across from the larger market. Isn’t there an empty K-Mart across from the Broadway Market? Anyone see the irony in the fact that many Buffalo Rising and BIA types love to heap scorn and derision on big boxes and the suburbs, and the DL&W is a big box ?
I don’t think the whole east side is the “fucking ghetto” at all. Is it fun to ooze elitist contempt at things and people?
As for “sensibility that must inform a contemporary urban market”, why don’t you just speak English for Christ’s sake? You’re using a pseudonym, so you have no one to impress but yourself.
So, how much federal and state money is being applied for?
Greg Says:March 11th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
I’ve been there once
I didn’t feel unsafe
but I also didn’t see what the big deal is, maybe I just picked a bad day and a lot of vendors weren’t there or something
HelenWheels Says:March 11th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Well, if the folks dedicated to making the Broadway Merket were really that dedicated they would take the time and clean it and the surrounding area up. Come on, people, the Broadway Market is filthy. I don’t understand why anyone buys food there. If the area activists really want to do something they should get off their computers and actually perform some maintenance and work with others to see it succeed.
Isn’t anyone tired of this war of words without action?
BuffaloGeek Says:March 11th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Well, if “Realist” used his real name (as we do when we post elsewhere), people might see him for what he is and not what he pretends to be on other sites around the local internets.
These little peeks behind the curtain are quite educational, aren’t they?
Chico Says:March 11th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I’m not sure I understand this back and forth-
This whole topic seemed to have started because bm supporters thought this new market proposal could be harmful to the bm’s health. But then the rest of the comments seem to imply that the bm is well attended and healthier than ever. If it’s healthy, shouldn’t this new market be irrelevant to the bm? Like, is it financially safe and sound, or could a waterfront market selling antiques put it out of business.
Also, it makes me uncomfortable when people indicate the east side is improving and point to the only 2 places white people go (central terminal and bm) When neighborhoods improve the majority of the population enjoys it. Sadly the majority of the people on the East side are not enjoying any kind of renaissance. It’s a shame, and it’s a problem that should be a priority for WNY. That said, I’m not sure the fate of either the bm or the cent terminal have much to do with the ultimate success of east side residents. Improving those destinations will help a bit, but there are much bigger challenges,
Realist Says:March 11th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
But I at least made a claim-a claim that police coverage is increased at the BM during Easter. Accept the claim or reject it but it’s a claim that can be proven true or false. You’re bullshit anecdote in regards to this discussion/argument is logical fallacy. But you know that.
This isn’t Miss Porter’s so why are you being such a girl? There are “neighborhoods” and then there are “fucking ghettos”-guess which one folks with money go to visit. And if you have to start marketing against the perception that your market is in a “fucking ghetto”, then maybe the odds are pretty long that you’re going to get people with money to visit regularly.
I really hope you craft better arguments when people pay you to do it. I hope this sloppiness is a result of this blog thing being your hobby.
Hipsters don’t want to go there. People from the neighborhood who have since moved are afraid to go back except for once or twice a year and even then just with the built-in safety of crowds and increased police coverage. And the story about the kids, specifically the reaction to it, highlights how uncomfortable people are with the “fucking ghetto”. The News pointed out in one of its articles about the incident (sorry, it’s archived now) that suspensions for violent infractions haven’t been lower since 2002-2003. With that as context, I’m guessing that the media flurry/public furry and fear is a harbinger for the success of marketing a market in the “fucking ghetto” to suburbanites and those who live in more developed parts of the city.
Thanks for making my point-”Plenty of people are very comfortable going to the Bway Market during Eastertime.” And while I’m no marketing expert, a plan to introduce a flea market (I think it’s safe to say, the concept for the DL&W market has changed/expanded beyond just a flea market, though) to a larger audience based on once a year frequency seems pretty Hail Mary.
Funny, I can’t seem to find your About page. Is Buffalo Pundit your legal name. Where do you work? What are your professional and civic accomplishments? On BRO, just about all the regular writers have “About” pages with their real names. I know who Newell is. I know what he’s done for Buffalo. He lives in Buffalo. He’s something like fourth generation Buffalonian. What about you, ClarencePundit? You publicly take issue with Newell and his efforts w/o disclosing who you are, so yeah, arguing with you anonymously is sweet and has a certain karmic symmetry.
So what?
Yep, architecture is all it has going against it. Slap a pretty façade on it and people will come running.
Which of these widely accepted qualifying criteria for big-box development does a potential DL&W Market meet?
Large windowless, rectangular single-story buildings
Standardized facades
No-frills site development that eschews community or pedestrian amenities
Everywhere and unique to no place, be it a rural town or urban neighborhood
Varying market niches; categories include discount department stores, category killers and warehouse clubs.
Even for you, that’s pretty lazy.
And you, Geek. Things have never been more positive on the East Side? Here. It’s a recent study by the Harvard School of Public Health and the Center for Health Advancement: detailed rankings for the largest 100 metropolitan regions based upon measures of housing, neighborhood conditions, residential integration, education and health. Guess where Buffalo/Niagara ranks. Just guess. For black kids it’s the worst place in the fucking country to live. Sure Niagara county is in there, but I’m guessing Buffalo’s East Side carried it’s own weight in achieving that distinction. But things have never been more positive, huh? And you guys have the nerve to accuse Buffalo Rising of looking at the city through rose-colored glasses.
BuffaloPundit Says:March 11th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Prove your own statement of fact. Not my job.
I didn’t realize the DL&W’s neighborhood was akin to that of, say, Bidwell & Elmwood.
That’s special. I think that’s your second ad hominem against me in one thread. That’s what one does when one runs out of actual points to make.
Ok. So, you’re objectively pro-violence by a few toughs in what rumor has it (as per Barbara Burns on Hardwick this morning) was a drug deal gone awry. No one gives a crap whether that kind of nonsense goes on in Buffalo or in Salamanca. It stinks no matter where it is.
I think it’s a Hail Mary to try to replicate something from Toronto (not to mention London) in Buffalo.
Toronto has 2.4 million residents within its 248 square miles, with 9,819 people per square mile, and boasts approx. CDN$50,000 household annual income.
Erie County, by contrast, has 930,700 residents, per capita income of $20,350 and an average household income of $38,500 in an area of 1,044 square miles and a density of 910 people per square mile.
Toronto is growing while Buffalo and Erie County are not. So I’m not particularly swayed by the numbers for a new massive market downtown.
That’s a laugh. If I’m so anonymous, how do you know I live in Clarence? And I’m an immigrant to this region. I came here by choice, so the idea that someone is a “fourth generation Buffalonian” is persuasive of nothing and smacks of the kind of reactionary provincial idiocy I detested in Boston.
So, it’s older than four generations’ worth of Buffalonians.
Or a new structure altogether.
I didn’t realize the architectural grandeur and non-boxiness of the warehouse you’re talking about.
This has been fun. Thanks for stopping by.
BuffaloPundit Says:March 11th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Incidentally, Realist, could you point to where exactly my vociferous opposition to Newell’s market has been expressed in such a way that would prompt you to troll my comment section and insult me?
BuffaloGeek Says:March 11th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Do you want to just come out and tell people who you are or would you prefer that we do it? These types of comments might hurt your business model…
As to your arguments, I find this comment quite interesting:
There are “neighborhoods†and then there are “fucking ghettosâ€-guess which one folks with money go to visit. And if you have to start marketing against the perception that your market is in a “fucking ghettoâ€, then maybe the odds are pretty long that you’re going to get people with money to visit regularly.
There are many suburbanites who still see the entire city as being a “fucking ghetto”, your point is a bit obtuse. If your plan is to market anything in the city to those who live outside of it, you’ll have the same marketing problem.
And yes, things are improving on the east side of the city. I’d refer you to BFA’s website and the blogs of other east side people that are hosted here at WNYM for some updates on positive development. They have been documenting the small steps of progress in an area of the city where there was nothing but regression for nearly four decades. And to claim that we are ignorant to the challenges that the east side and the city on the whole face is a complete falsehood. We talk about the challenges every day and we also try and get people involved to help meet those challenges.
Or, I guess we spend our time talking about sandwiches and where to buy the coolest pajamas on the elmwood strip…
Finally, one person’s “fucking ghetto” is another person’s neighborhood. If you want to paint the entire east side as a fucking ghetto, I’m not really sure that you truly want to see Buffalo rise.
Haterade Says:March 11th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
I love it … do-gooder suburbanites vs. silver-spoon hipster doofi. Priceless.
Pauldub Says:March 11th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Deep breaths, gentleman, deep breaths. Thaaat’s better. I bailed out of following this one because I was getting highly pissed. Some people’s ignorance is not good for the blood pressure.
Enjoy the weather!
Bullsh*t Detector (aka Keyboard Warrior & Buffalo Hater) Says: Says:March 11th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
I gotta side with the Realist. Reality is reality. A piece of tripe isn’t steak, no matter how it’s marketed. If do-goodie liberals wanna show how “racially sensitive” they are, let them go to the BM as often as they like. But don’t blame Realist, or Bush if your worst nightmare occurs there.
david Says:March 12th, 2007 at 2:24 am
Alan & others….
FYI…I was blogging about Artspace and Coe Place before there was a Buffalo Rising…and unless I’m mistaken - which I could be - the East side has two bloggers, Michele and me…
It is fascinating to read these comments from suburban based bloggers about life and crime on Buffalo’s East side. Life over here is often, poor, nasty, brutish and short. I was left for dead after being viciously assaulted one block away from the BM 11 years ago. After a TBI I am very very lucky to be alive today…
Realist…email me. I believe you are on to something about the beefed up Police thing during Easter…
The “fucking ghetto”…well, it’s getting bigger…and presents a huge barrier to the future success of any retail operation in the neighborhood. Kmart closed because more stuff was leaving out the back door than the front. Mr. Kaminski was assaulted various times in his store just down the street from the BM and on and on…always wondered when felonious behavior was going to treated as such rather than rewarded.
Despite some very very small pockets of - mostly using public investment - development - the East side presents enormous challenges. It continues to be “hollowed out” and the urban prairie continues to grow. It’s the only thing growing…despite anyone’s intentions or hope.
Absent significant private investment - which the CT may still inspire…it’s down hill - just walk down Playter Street and see the progressive third-worldization of our City…
I encourage BM board members to embrace very creative incentives and programs to attract and retain a tenant base. Absent significant subsidy, it’s the only way it will survive. Otherwise, the days are numbered. Just is…
Mike Miller Says:March 12th, 2007 at 6:58 am
Wow, take a break for a couple days and all Hell breaks loose!
I’m not going to join the argument because you all know how I feel about the potential of the east side and Broadway Fillmore, in particular. I’m just going to add a couple of points I believe are pertinent facts:
1. Newell has been a great friend to me and to the east side since I met him a few years ago. His support and marketing of the events at the terminal have helped us draw 80,000 people there in the last 4 years. He has NO problem coming to the east side, at all.
2. The DL&W terminal is owned and operated by the NFTA. If they wouldn’t sell it to the Senecas, why would they sell it to market developers?
3. There is a place for another market in Buffalo. You’ll see some pretty cool changes at the Broadway Market in the coming years. It will continue to draw off the heritage of neighborhood, but it will change as the demographic has changed.
4. 5 years ago they told us no one would come to visit a decayed train station in a high crime area. Now, we are drawing 3,500 people at our larger events. No one has been raped, mugged or shot at any of our events. I’ve been in the neighborhood for a few thousand hours at all times of the day and night, and I’m still here.
BuffaloPundit Says:March 12th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Mike - that’s what’s so funny about Realist’s attacks on me and his overwrought rebuttal. I never expressed a disagreement with the notion of a downtown market. All I did was raise some questions about starting big vs. starting small. I have a pretty good idea who “Realist” is, and if I’m right then I’ll be remarkably disappointed.
Mike, you said:
The question I posed at Buffalo Rising that no one has yet answered is whether there is a place for two more markets in Buffalo. After all, the Canal Side project that Benderson is going to develop contains a Quincy Market-esque component which would bring a market downtown. Quincy Market of 2007 is mainly chains, except there remain some independent food stalls. The Quincy Market of 1985 was mostly independent, local stores. I don’t know what the plan is for the market down by Canal Side (it’s Benderson, so I can guess), but there are questions that I think are fair to ask of the DL&W plan, and I think the answers go beyond “Realist” calling me a “girl” or “ClarencePundit”.
Mike Miller Says:March 12th, 2007 at 7:43 am
Alan, I really think there is room for 2, but but not 3. I’m picturing a downtown market to be like a fruit, produce, fish and flea market, targeting mainly the tourists and downtown residents.
The Broadway Market, I believe, will become an international market, capitalizing more on the Asian, Muslim, African American and Latino communities surrounding it.
I wouldn’t worry too much about anyone’s attacks. Some people are more concerned with winning an argument than with winning a battle. Save your energy for the battle. We still need it!
Mike Miller Says:March 12th, 2007 at 7:45 am
PS - I’m still confused about the availability of the DL&W for this market. Why do people believe that the NFTA will readily sell this building for use as a market? Where would they move their light rail maintenance operations?
dave in Rocha Says:March 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
“As I’ve said before, the question of a proposed downtown “hipster flea market†conflicting with the Broadway market is a non-issue, at least until public $$ might get involved. The former is focused on food. The latter, most likely on arts, crafts, antiques, ect…..Although what it will really be like is still rather fuzzy. At this point it’s still in the “Hey dude, let’s put some cool shit in this bigass superawesome grand old building.†phase.” - gabe
Gabe, while I think we disagreed a bit on a different aspect of this topic before, I totally agree with you here. In another 5-10 years, after both markets undergo some evolution, they may be rather similar, but for the time being, they’re different enough to both stand on their own merits.
I do have a reply for “Realist”, and it’s the same thing I’ve been saying. The Public Market in Rochester is also in the “fucking ghetto”, yet it draws a TON of people EVERY SATURDAY, from all over Monroe County. It’s not located downtown or near the river. It’s not in the middle of the Park Ave area (Park Ave is our version of Elmwood). And it’s not even near anything else, yet it’s wildly successful.
Park Ave Hipsters, college students, young families, immigrants… they all come frequently. About the only demographic I don’t see are Pittsford Soccer Moms (Pittsford=Amherst), and it’s doing just fine without their money. If the PM can be a big weekly draw, then I’m certain the BM can be (or is already) as well.
R Dubs Says:March 13th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
BuffaloPundit - why do you spend so much time arguing your point trying to look like the smartest thing around?
Why dont you just be the bigger person and discuss issues instead of proving each other wrong. You too Realist.
I work at the BM. The area is terrible. It is safe - in the day time. But most of the stores in the market are closed.
A DLW marketplace wound not compete. Thats the point. BM is a local neighborhood shopping icon, yes. It doesnt have to be the CoBs “shining star” of food commerce. I sure hope to god it isnt…..
BuffaloGeek Says:March 15th, 2007 at 1:12 am
I’m still laughing about Newell being a “fourth generation Buffalonian”. Whatever the fuck that has to do with anything…
BTW, just to be snarky, I checked with my Grandmother and it appears I am a fifth generation Buffalonian. Does that qualify me to do anything special? Do I get more cred when I propose an idea? Is there a hat, t-shirt, or special pin that I can wear?
Let me know.